Racism and the challenge for HR: Where next?

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you hi everybody I'm gonna kick us off I can
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see that the numbers are going up by the second but I will get started because we've got an hour to crack through a lot
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of information and a great conversation so my name is Kate Jacobs I work at CI PD I'd like to thank you all for joining
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us today for this the third and final part of our webinar series on racism and
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the challenges for HR as this is the last part in this current series we're
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looking at what next where do we go from here we've been having some really fantastic conversations lately so how do
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we leverage this momentum and this energy to create lasting positive change now if you're watching today but you
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haven't watched parts 1 & 2 then personally shame on you but please do go back and watch them both they are
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available on the CIPD website I think watching them will allow you to appreciate and contextualize the
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conversation we're going to have today so we would strongly encourage you to watch them if you haven't done that already so joining me this afternoon
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I have Frank Douglas and if you've watched our previous sessions then you'll know Frank very well by now he's
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a respected and influential voice on diversity and inclusion and on and on HR more generally he's held senior global
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HR roles and he used to sit on the CIPD board thank you Frank for coming along again and also joining us we've got
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Peter cheese and I'm sure as most of you should be aware Peter is a CEO the CIPD
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I'm very quickly gonna run through the housekeeping because if you've watched all of these and you're gonna be getting
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very bored of me saying the same things so I reminded that the session is being recorded and you'll be able to access it
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afterwards you can find it on the CIPD hub page on tackling racism in the workplace and on that hub you'll also
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find the recordings of the previous webinars as well as lots of other content including a new guide to
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building an anti-racist strategy I wanted to flag our well being helpline
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for our members in the UK and Ireland with award-winning workplace well-being provide a health assured we're now
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providing CIPD members with free help and support by sessions with therapists online or over the phone so that's there
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for you if you need it and you can see details about that on your screen at the moment if you want to submit questions
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for Peter and Frank then please could you use the Q&A tab which you can see at the bottom of your screen please feel free to use the chat
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function to talk among yourselves or to make comments but it was so active last session I just really couldn't keep up
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with it so if you want to be asking questions that you want me to put to Peter and Frank please put them in the Q&A or I
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might not see them thanks to Frank and his brilliant colleague Serena and Deb
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we've had two really powerful sessions in this series so far we've learned about the history of under
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representation of people from ethnic minorities in the workplace we've explored how to create psychologically
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safe spaces within organizations to talk about race and how HR professionals can work to create Pro inclusive leadership
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cultures um this hour we're going to run a little bit differently to previous sessions so apart from the slides that
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you can see right now there are going to be no other sides there are no presentations instead Frank and Peter
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are going to have an honest conversation about tackling racism in the workplace about what HR needs to do what the
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challenges are and where we go from here I think it's really clear from the engagement we've had in these sessions
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just how much energy there is to embed and create change so we really can't let that dissipate so please ask questions
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please connect with each other in the chat and I will do my best to facilitate that as well as I can but now I just
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like to hand over to Frank and Frank's just gonna make some opening comments and reflections thanks Frank Thank You
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Kati and and good afternoon everyone and thanks for letting us come between your
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dinner or your rose' or at least my roles say for sure at 6 o'clock and I
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think there's been two great sessions with Serena and dad and both in their own way given us the language of race
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and the language of an inclusive leadership and once again justly a thank
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you to Peter and the IEEE CIPD for for hosting these three sessions and four
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and quite literally giving me a total editorial freedom to help equipped the
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profession to deal better with this topic so so thank you again so I'm gonna
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kind of get my closing arguments if wish based on the last two sessions and
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some some some overall viewpoints so the issue of the challenges in terms of race
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in the black and Asian ethnic Mart community and why I think it hasn't
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moved as much as it should and the things we have the dress to make it move so I'm going to come at it from a couple
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of ways so the first angle I'm going to come at it is from a strategic point of view in terms of an organizational blind
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spot as HR directors one of your key roles is to help the understand help the
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company understand strategically what is his blind spot so if you were opening up
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an operation in Malaysia for example and you had no one a Malaysian background on
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your team no one who understood the Malaysian market the Malaysian supply
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chain the distribution channels the customer behaviors what would you do well you'd probably go out and hire
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someone with that SIL skillset and background to cover that organizational
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blind spot or if you had a finance team and you CEO said you know we're going to be doing a lot more corporate
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transactions so we're gonna need someone with an M&A background what would you do you would go out there and recruit
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someone to fill that organizational blind spot slash capability so the
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question I have is we recognize that we are in a diverse world different markets
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different challenges different perspectives different buying behaviors different purchasing behaviors different
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expectations of a brand and particularly in the black and ethnic minority
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community we do not have representation at the senior levels of those organizations or even in decision-making
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rooms I mean those organizations so the question I'm going to leave you with is
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why do we allow in a very critical area the organization to have that blind spot
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and so as HR directors that's basically what strategies about this not
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identifying your blind spots and covering them to move forward so I'm
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puzzled as - why we have allowed an organizational blind spot to exist when strategically
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it holds us back the other question I have is many of you have seen the
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McKinsey reports Boston Consulting Group the uncie IPD report Harvard Wharton you
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name it there is a host of reports out there and showing that a diverse team is
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a more competitive team and a more innovative team so if I just focus on the McKinsey report but here Z has said
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that if you excel in gender and ethnic diversity you have a 35% chance of
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outperforming your competitors in the stock market world that's called alpha
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performance you're not making enough you're not just keeping up with the market you're outperforming the market
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we hired McKinsey everyone hires McKenzie and McKenzie comes back and says the organization need to turn 10
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degrees left most organizations turn 10 degrees left my question is in this case
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why don't they char and CEOs believe the
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data the data is there if you walk into any CEOs office and say boss I got a
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proposition that's likely to help us outperform our competition in a non
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corporate where all your boss would probably hug you promote you give you a bigger office and one day you'll
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probably be the CEO why is in this top position can you not walk into the
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offices say boss here's a proposition that will help us outperform our competitors why is it after three years
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of the McKinsey report at least in you know many years otherwise do we not
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action that data and in some cases why in this one case so to speak with
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McKinsey do we not believe that data and I think that's the question that your
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organization has to ask themselves with that wealth of data why is it this one about race in particular because we
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focus on the gender why when we have all this data about race being a value
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creation lever have we not pulled it after all these years the other issue is around
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and we've heard this the last two times around the black experience and indeed you know Serina asked a couple of
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questions in her first one around you know raise your hand so to speak or tap your leg if if you've ever felt
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endangered because of this color your skin or your nationality and our other question was have you had a visa decline
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based on heritage have you ever needed to put an accent on to check or change
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your hair to be accepted have you ever had to appear more friendly so not to be
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intimidated those aren't questions and typically that a white person would be answering
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yes to and indeed in my clients and and and even on these conversations there
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are people who've answered yes to all five of those it is different and indeed
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you know the park review I have to tell you boss me when part of their hope and
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optimism was based on their progress that have been made around ginger white
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women don't have to answer those same sort of questions and indeed if I'm a black point of view we still find that
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the black population has a higher level unemployment black men is still more
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likely to be stopped and searched black men are still more likely to be arrested black men are still more likely to be
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denied bail they're still more likely to be imprisoned and the black community is still more likely as we've seen to die
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from covert the black experience is different you cannot find any optimism
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in how you progress the gender agenda with how you're going to progress the
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black and clearly in addition the Asian and ethnic minority of ginger they're not the same they're not the same
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solutions don't rely now I know it's a joy people you like something tactical
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so I'm gonna give you one piece of tactical and they'll wind up so here's something tactical because as I found
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and in my basic business when I work with clients is basically to disrupt the
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myth of meritocracy that is what I do because without doing that you will not
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challenge issues of inclusion in in most companies and so in doing that I also find that
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you know HR checks his own homework many times and sometimes it's the unattended policy or practice of HR that could be
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barriers to diversity and inclusion so here's one that I found in many of the clients I work with and if you've
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outsourced your recruitment function or you have it in term inside one of the key metrics of recruitment is time to
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hire I'm sure if I ask you to raise your hand to say how many of you is time to hire as a metric most of you would raise
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your hand I would argue based on the evidence time to hire is a barrier to
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diversity because if you've given your recruitment team or your outsource team
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you know the 30-day metric but what it is to you know go from an interview to
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hire sourcing to hire what are they gonna do you're gonna go for the low-hanging fruit you're gonna go for your traditional
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networks your non-traditional Network if you wish may take you 60 to 90 days there is no reward and going to your
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non-traditional networks so there's the little tactical advice after this go back and challenge yourselves and and
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and understand it's time to hire actually the right metric in the world
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that we're trying to live in and then finally in mind my closing argument if you wish is why has the gender a gender
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move much faster than the black and Asian ethnic market ginger if a lot of
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reasons for that one is um as I've him I say this to every client and they still
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hire me um but you know is that every white male knows a white female women
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are part of the c-suite professional orbit and women are part of the c-suite personal orbit very few
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c-suite executives actually have a a black or Asian person and their professional orbit and they have even
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less chance of them being in their personal work so that comfort level is there it is just it's just part of your
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natural organic lifestyle so if you're a CEO or group HR director or the
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talent this is the underlying assumption your organization is made your
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organization has said to itself at some point in time we see a woman leaving our
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company at some point in time we see the likelihood of a woman being the CEO or
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the group HR director about organization and when you have that vision as many
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company have said what have they've done they've backfilled all the processes and
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initiatives they can in order to create that future scenario that one day a
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woman will be able to lead that fancy company my question how many group HR
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directors how many heads of talent how many CEOs have said to themselves I
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envision one day a black person being the CEO of this witzy company I
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envisioned a black person being the CEO of this company there is the gap we have
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not envisioned it for whatever reason we don't believe the data we don't action
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the data and the dial has not moved
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thank you Frank some very powerful points there that will dig into shortly
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and I can see there's some questions coming up brilliant I can see you are connecting with each other in the chat which is also great
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before I ask some questions and bring in some of your questions I'd like to ask Peter to an opening reflection and
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responders on the France points yeah thank you Katie and thank you Frank festival thank you Frank for supporting
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us on these webinars and you can see from the chat room that a lot of people have responded very positively to these
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webinars I've listened into the two previous ones and it's a real privilege and pleasure to be part of this one and and it is
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important I'm part of this one because I know many of the questions of course are about what are we to use the CIPD
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and what are we doing in terms of our role in helping the profession to address these issues and so on and
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that's I think very much the essence of this particular webinar but just some reflections I mean for me personally
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this has been a big wake-up call and I have spent a lot of my life and a lot of my time and it said
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since I've been with the CI we need before that talking about the issues of diversity and inclusion believing them
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very passionately engaging lots of different networks ethnic and and other networks to talk about importance of
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diversity and inclusion and yet the sad fact is is Frank has eloquently said as
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we have not made enough progress and more than that we haven't addressed the
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central issues and understanding of what racism really is and that's been part of my you know reflection in the assault
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process as I've sent a lot of people are probably not reflected in anything more deeply then why why is ISM what is it
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we've got to do to address this issue and at one level it is understanding things like what is meant in these
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challenging terms of things like white privilege and and Frank's touched on it I mean this idea that I as a white
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person do not have to confront or even question or even think about issues that
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might be related to the color of my skin and it can be as simple as things like thinking about where am I want to go on
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holiday and and if I'm black should I be going to place which is only white or predominantly white and all these sorts
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of questions and that means that this subject of racism which is off itself is an emotive term is not just about
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harassment and the awful incidents that we saw in America which of course have led to so much of the current debate it
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is all these microaggressions only prejudices exist all these expectations
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on on both sides that exist their expectations perhaps of young black
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people that they won't have the opportunity so they don't look the opportunity and then for the white majority not giving them those
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opportunities so that's one of the first I think big reflections that what is meant by racism in all its forms and
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what we understand that and what we need to understand and be aware of is white people and this very idea of white
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privilege and even the ideas of institutional racism and it's it's been very challenging again to hear
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commentary or read things that might suggest but many organizations made it to some degree even the CD is in some
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way institutionally racist but what is meant by that it's certainly in the modern vernacular is that you're not
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addressing issues and if you can't show that you're addressing those issues and you can't show diversity very much as Sarina
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challenged in that first webinar then are you of yourself in some ways not
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understanding racism within your organization or prejudice or bias or whatever it might be so as I said I
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think from me person in for this yakety and for all of this this has been a massive wake-up call and what we need to
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do is to move to action that's not the first time that's been said but there is no doubt this time there's no getting
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away from what are we going to do as Frank said to move the dial the evidence is there I agree the evidence is there
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from a business case but I think what the evidence is not strong in our form is our own evidence as organizations of
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what we've been doing what are our own demographics and and if we don't understand those things for our
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organizations ourselves what is the mix and makeup of our organization and where
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are the gaps and what have we got to do to address them and what are the actions that make a difference and what are the outcomes were driving for then we won't
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make a difference and I think to be honest so much of what we've done around diversity and inclusion has been about
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process has been thinking about in recruitment and progression in different aspects but we haven't addressed some of
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the core issues and we haven't always understood the outcomes and therefore we don't have the data internally to show
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what has worked and really where we are on things like ethnographic ethnographic and you know I'll give you a point of
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reference to that you know some of the work we've done is the CIB deed has shown that only roughly 50% of larger
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organizations would say we have the data internally that understand properly the
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ethnic mix of their organization now we can hide behind GDP are other things out
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there but the fact is this is an important vital part of our understand so those are some of the reflections and
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therefore as an organization we'll get into this conversation during the course of seminar so what are we doing for the CRPD and stuff what do we understand it
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the see how could he not be very frank and open with you where we are on all of that what are we doing to support the
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profession and these webinars are part of it we are encouraging you all to open up the conversations within your
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organization's we put a lot of stuff now on the website in terms of guidance and publication strategies as to how do you talk and
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open up the conversations of racism and race there were what are we doing on
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policy you're actually touched on a bit of that and we for one will absolutely be pushing we've been involved in
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consultations we will be pushing idea about the pay gap reporting but it can't exist on its own we must have more
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transparency in reporting of ethnic and diversity makeup of organizations everywhere and of course what are we
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doing about all of our own diversity teaching and training and awareness have we really embedded in the heart of that
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teaching of thinking a deep understanding the need for these conversations about things like race and
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race that were or if we've been thinking that we're addressing it without really addressing without really digging below
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the surface and understanding that yeah if we talk about bias yes we need to understand bias but is that hidden
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behind cultural norms and behaviors that we've all just accepted and to go to Frank's points on recruitment and I've
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long said actually Frank that we should not be using time to hire it's an efficiency metric it doesn't get to what
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you need and recognizing time to how it doesn't get you to what you need also pointed another profound point that it
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takes work to get to get real diversity in your organization it doesn't happen
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naturally we don't naturally as Frank as already charities we don't naturally always
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group and have connections into other diverse communities and those are things that we need to acknowledge and
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understand in our organizations as well therefore as I said yes we can talk about bias and unconscious bias and
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teaching that but if we are missing the point about our culture behaviors and norms and we're still using language and
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I'm in our recruitment practices of cultural fit and things of that nature which can be very thin veiled but we
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want more people to look like ourselves then those are the core issues that we have to address that I for one
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personally professionally and as an organization welcome this is too bad welcome this challenge we should have
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acknowledged this before and I welcome these webinars and all the questions that have come through and and this will
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not be the end of it we will do walk more webinars we really need to engage as a community to be honest
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where we are as a profession where we are without thinking of processes of diversity and inclusion from what we
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have got to do now to make a difference so thank you thank you Peter and thank
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you everybody I can see all of your comments brilliant in the chat and the questions as well so I will come to
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those shortly I'll wrap them up into my own questions um so the first thing I'm gonna ask ask you first Frank we've had
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some comments about the speed or rather the opposite of change and somebody's
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put quite a long long comment in but the crux of the issue is that a lot of firms
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all have DNI specialists so why isn't change happening so if I think I've seen
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quite a lot of comments coming up you know we had a lot of conversations some people feel we've had these
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conversations similar conversations for quite a long time so if you've got
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people who have the job title D&I why isn't it happening and what can we do to change that well the the yeah the the
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job title obviously that doesn't change the dial and you know so there's a
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couple of things I've observed in when I deal with my US clients and my UK
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clients so for one many of my US clients the head of DNI sits on the Executive
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Board I mean courtesan to the CEO and because of the UK the US governance structure
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when you're reporting to the CEO you're also reporting to the chairman the chairperson of the board so that's a
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very powerful conduit and channel and statement that if this company is making
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in terms of we don't see this as just an HR issue but to my initial point and to
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the McKenzie study we've see this as a value creation issue so when you have a
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head of DNI recording two or three levels away from the CEO and that's
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pretty optimistic companies also making a statement of how we view it so they
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don't view it as a value creation mechanism they kind of view it more as a
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recruitment sort of issue so so part of it is there is one footsie 250 that has a head of DNI
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reporting directly to the CEO not one you would find it very I won't say
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common but you it wouldn't be uncommon to find that so you know one of my major
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clients in the public domain by home CBS Marva smalls Marva reports into the CEO
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and chairman my other client Warner group want a music group they're recruiting for a global head of DNI that
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will report in to the executive committee member and there's a lot of stories like that so so so forced and
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and and others so I think that I don't think as a DNI issue I I think it's a
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you know a CEO issue and so as Peter has heard me say before you know you know CEOs get the HR they
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deserve well they also get the DNI so if you're gonna put in three levels down to the organization you're not positioning
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it as a change agent within the organization you can't change the organization three or four levels from
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the CEO another couple of quick those I agree with the point Frank because if
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you see it as at that level of the organization but you're also saying is that the DNI agenda is a strategic
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agenda and it's of course it's a very core HR agenda but there many other things that we do those organizations
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that influence diversity of voices organizations how we are part of society what responsible businesses and I
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strongly believe that inclusion is a really really important part of being a responsible business but my other
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observation I would add is that I've too often seen DNI teams that sort of sit slightly to the side and when they might
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have two or three people working with them and then the organization's say well diversity inclusions their issue whereas in fact it is everybody's issue
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in the organization starting to point with the CEO and then we need to see diversity and inclusion certainly from
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an HR context as integral to everything we do isn't sit on the side it's integral so you link those ideas making
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it into everything we do making everybody's responsibility seeing it is strategic the organizational to the
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business case not just it's not just only HR but other aspects supply chain would be another good example and then
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you get the positioning that you're describing so I think it's a combination of things and not just
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how you get the highest level of representation into the CEO and if I can just wanted one addendum to that Katie
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is that the the other challenge and it's not to dis you know might might be and I
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colleagues by any means but there is no uncommon assumption of what are the skills does it take to be a become a
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head of DNI we don't really have a true competency map the heads of DNI and the
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path of E and I are gonna be in a value creation role we have to make sure that they are qualified for it so so you know
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you can always and again I say this respectfully you just can't always have an enthusiastic amateur who has a
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passion for DNI it happens to be a gay male or a black female say okay they
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like this and they they're part of underrepresented group let's throw them in there change management is probably
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one of the most critical skills of a DNI professional that's not necessary I haven't seen that on too many job
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descriptions understanding the science of psychology of inclusion and such but
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but change management and building relationships those are DNI criteria that you really
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see so I think there's something we said that we also have to codify and do a little bit more as a profession and
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really understanding in this day and age and if we want to position it where it
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should be we need to also understand that there's a qualification beyond honestly enthusiasm sometimes needs to
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be part of the process building on that we've had some comments some questions Peter about how the CI PD will be
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embedding the kind of stuff that Frank's talking about within our learning and qualifications so could you share
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anything on that yeah absolutely I mean many of you would be familiar I'm sure with the new profession map that we'd be
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building all the qualification structures around that and I can absolutely be reassuring that diversity and inclusion is what I think of as a
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golden thread and so to emphasize the points I made that we need to think of diversity and inclusion in every aspect
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of HR and recruitment progression succession planning resourcing etc stature so that's the first point to
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make the second point to make is that we are adding more content around so Frank's challenge and it's a very good
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challenge about what it means to have those specialist skills and competencies on diversity
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inclusion so you can dig deep and understand that but as I said before we we're weaving it into every part of our
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teaching and thinking and every process and function of a jar and then layering on top of that a deeper specialism for
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tea and I and we have been talking about and then this is there again an interesting question throughout to the
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community about proper recognition and because as you said Frank I mean if it takes more than passion it does take you
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to understand we talked about in the context and Stelio also well being saying that you know again well-being as
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a subject needs deep understanding it should be seen as a special ism if you will with skills and career maps and
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journeys and all these other things just as much as we might talk about a reward specialist so those are other aspects
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which are also going to be building in not just to the qualification system the learning systems but the recognition
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systems as well so echo and build on what Frank has just said thank you I'd
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like to ask a couple of questions about regulation and what you would like to see done from government it hasn't come
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up in this but in the last discussion we had a couple of questions about the misty pay gap reporting that somebody's
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asked question here um is it now time for the UK to embrace the Rooney rule around positive action in recruitment
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progression and contracting so if we could just wrap that up into regulation um Frank what do you think needs to
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change in terms of regulation and what government always forces businesses do yeah I come in from maybe the other side
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of the spectrum here KD which is we put a lot of focus on recruitment as we
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should but less focused on retention and so you can hire ten black where Asian
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managers next week or you can hire four or five people with visible disabilities the following week but if you don't have
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a culture of inclusion and understanding and and and and and psychological safety
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you're going to lose them and I would argue that with many companies you I mean you can look at my
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bio I work for some very very big companies I would argue that if
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any of those companies had retained the black and Asian and ethnic minority talent they had particularly during the
31:29
times I was there just telling myself that they had they wouldn't be having this conversation and so we put a lot of
31:37
focus on getting them in the door and there's metrics around that and very few
31:43
companies actually had any KPI of where are they two years later where they four
31:48
years later and five years later so yes I I think I think we need to disrupt the
31:53
marketplace a little bit more and there's ever time to hire and our recruitment process but I think the
31:59
issue is probably in many ways a retention issue in terms of the ethnic
32:04
pay gap yes I think that should be mandatory but as we've seen with the gender pay gap that has a so that
32:10
necessarily moved the dial it's kind of stagnated a bit but again the the the
32:15
the issue becomes what are we going to do about and reach into pay gap report III I will I'll bet you five beers come
32:23
Saturday every gender pay gap report and there now to have starts out really like
32:29
other companies our issue is that we just don't have enough women in senior positions they all say that pretty much
32:36
and that's the problem and then they just move on and and and nothing happens so you have to pay gap is just gonna
32:42
have a different narrative our problem is we don't have enough black and Asian people and senior levels and so we're
32:47
going to put in mentoring we're gonna saw an employee resource group we're gonna take every off-the-shelf solution
32:52
that doesn't really work and we're gonna do that and that's all tick box so it's
32:58
not about the metrics it's about what are you actually going to do to make it happen so sorry tune answer your question but to me recruitment is is is
33:06
key but you recruit all you want but if you don't create the culture of inclusion and retention I uh you know
33:14
it's first-in first-out thanks I'm gonna
33:19
ask Peter to answer the question I feel and I am all very valid absolutely right
33:28
and the retention is an issue everywhere it's a retention issue for women as much as ethnic minorities and so forth and so
33:34
it is an important trick i what i would send the policy staff women as i said in my opening
33:40
remarks that we have been involved in the consultation and ethnic play got reports and we think that is a step in
33:45
the right direction but it is tough I mean oh my goodness I think to a key a key you'll point Frank on gender pay gap report it yeah
33:53
we had a lot of noise and squealing about that in many ways you think but why would that be so hard and and it
34:00
pointed to one of the realities that I also said American in the Marxist oh we have not had enough analytics and data
34:06
on the insight on really what is the makeup before organizations so ethnic
34:12
beggar reporting we believe it is a step in the right direction but what we have to be so careful of is it does not
34:17
become a compliance and tick box exercise even on gender pay gap reporting as we as we've surveyed our
34:24
thousand as we work with the government equalities office on it we know a lot of organizations report a number but then
34:30
they have no narrative what does that tell you at all mr. niché's tells you that I do don't understand it or it just seems to tick box exercise so
34:38
what else is that that we need to think about policy tones of brilliant would say everything paid out reporting is a step in the right direction what else is
34:44
there well as I've touched on already more reporting on the makeup of your
34:49
workforce and the overall demographics of it would be a very good thing to do now you mentioned the Parker report
34:55
Frank there was also Ruby McGregor Smith's report in 2017 which was a very good
35:00
report and actually his headline was it's time to take action and that was three years ago she recommended a number
35:05
of these sorts of things that there should be more transparency the businesses reporting on the makeup of the workforces that is something I've
35:12
long advocated and see I could use applicators it's not actually one number it's an overall picture that we're
35:18
trying to create and then alongside that is the narrative of your culture and your processes what you're doing to
35:24
shift the dial so you can understand and be challenged on your understanding of it and other ideas would be involving
35:30
the investor community I mean the investor community is moving on to these ideas of ESG environmental social and
35:37
governance issues and these are social and governance issues so encouraging the investor community to ask these
35:43
questions because to go back to the business case we know the business case of diversity therefore an investor
35:49
interested in do you have diversity in your organization because that will drive better outcomes for you attraction
35:55
or intentions they are clearly big one but on your whole innovation creativity breaking groupthink and all of those
36:01
other things that both of the business case as well so investors can be part of it and then also how do we include
36:07
government and it can be done through government amongst others celebrating role models I mean yeah we need that
36:12
that's a bit of the carrot a mistake there me so we need the carrot as well celebrating role models celebrating
36:18
great organizations that are leading on the diversity gender celebrating when
36:23
Frank challenge that we have no black CEOs where we have black CEOs in organizations let's celebrate that let's
36:29
make them visible and those are things which I think both government and policy are part off but part of what we can
36:36
also do ourselves as organizations we don't always have to wait for somebody to tell us what all the rules are we
36:41
believe in this stuff I believe we should be doing it anyway I can pick up
36:46
a key not pick up an Asha questionnaire Pedic why you why you're on and your flow is to address what obviously for
36:56
the profession is an elephant in the room and and so as you know and I always
37:01
say humbly my wife says I should stop saying humbly I was the last black male footsy group HR director and I've been
37:07
out of the corporate world seven years now you're the CIP statistics is at is
37:13
88% on white and clearly if you take that to the leadership team level it's
37:19
probably 90 95 percent they'll be interested in your thoughts or one how
37:25
did the profession get there which is important because the history is preamble and then really you know your
37:31
view on how do we change that dynamic yeah such an important question and it
37:38
has been raised throughout these webinars and it is a really really important one and and I would acknowledge as the CIPD we have not done
37:44
enough to shine the light on the those exact statistics I mean so it is as you said Frank from our own findings eighty
37:50
eight percent in other words only twelve percent of the proportion of our
37:56
membership are black or ethnic minority and eleven percent at the mid levels and
38:02
only seven percent of the most senior and we've known that it does tighly pretty well with what we can see from
38:08
overall Aaron s statistics recognizing deputy manager booze is a measure of the total their profession so yeah that's
38:15
the first thing I'd say to all is that we and I would acknowledge that we have not done enough ourselves as the professional body to shine a light on
38:22
that fact and we will we are going to shine a light much more strongly on that and and recognizing this is something
38:29
we've all got to address that I mean I can't do it all let me see I believe but I'm what I want to do is help the profession understand these issues and
38:36
then we will all hold ourselves to account for improving our ethnic diversity now where does it start
38:42
well yes it starts to some of the more junior levels we know that this year actually about 20% of the students that
38:49
are studying CIPD qualification so if you will of the more entry-level to the profession are from black and ethnic
38:54
minorities and that's a good thing but just at Frank's time we're going to make sure we retain and grow those people so
39:00
so that's that's a channel as well encouraging more people into the profession from the black and ethnic
39:05
minority communities and recognizing where the maybe berries and one of the barriers will be if they can't you know
39:11
they know perhaps from somewhat more disadvantaged backgrounds and can't always find that access route is maybe
39:17
too expensive or so we're also looking at ideas like bursaries to support people from those backgrounds into the
39:23
profession and then what about progression through and up the profession well mentorship mentoring and coaching programs we've already touched
39:29
on a very important part of that we have mentoring programs within our community already it's been looking perhaps not so
39:36
much of the diversity angle we now need to focus it more on that diversity angle but to bring senior professionals to
39:42
help to mentor and encourage and support people from ethnic minorities up through the through the profession itself so
39:50
there are a number I think very particular things which we've acknowledged we will do and we put them out there on the website we're putting
39:55
them out there in the communities because I believe when I know we all believe in this that if we're going to take action we're going to make you
40:01
members let's be public about those commitments and those are commitments that I am making for the profession that
40:07
we will do better on this we will hold ourselves collectively to account and we will put in the mechanisms to support as
40:13
much as we can as I say I believe the help these thing as I said I think to be honest
40:18
it's something we've all got to acknowledge as professions and professional leaders and how to shift this dial so we do get in in in the
40:26
years to come a far better representation of ethnic minorities across our profession thanks Peter and
40:32
I'm just going to ask one more question about the CIPD specifically and then I return to some more general questions but some people asking will we be
40:38
publishing our ethnicity pay gap and what does Nick mix look like would you be able to share some data on that war
40:45
on the topic yeah very hard to do because of course and I totally acknowledge this as being part of my own
40:51
personal reflections I've always said on every platform I set internally that I
40:56
cannot and we cannot dispose people can see every stand our platforms unless we know we're doing we understand these
41:01
things I sell so our own stance is the CRPD is that our black and ethnic minority mix is 28% of the total
41:09
population which I believe is not bad but it depends how you look at it yes so first of all it is across the job fans
41:18
you know the different levels the organization it varies a lot so interestingly at the lowest levels of the organization and what we call bomb
41:24
one it is it's 42% ethnic minority and black which is which is very strong but
41:31
that dissipates as we go out it's only 18 percent in the senior management
41:37
ranks interestingly at the senior level so the direct reports to me we're now at 20% and I would also say at the board to
41:44
see how to be board which we have worked on over the years to improve its ethnic diversity is now
41:49
about 30 percent of the board of some black and Asian or so black and ethnic minority community so those are that the
41:55
ball stands now what does that mean for us is the actions we've got to take because one is to extract you to Frank's
42:01
challenge is to get better progression up into the senior ranks now that may
42:07
well mean that we've got to bring more people in as well as progressing people and that's something we have to be honest about also how we playing that
42:14
out as I said across the profession but it is looking at it across the organization as well and recognizing and
42:22
this is again something that I should have recognized before is that we are
42:27
not consistent across the organization so interestingly but we've got our digital and Technology
42:33
part of the organization which is broadly RIT but of organization we are much better than the average stats we
42:40
have a very diverse crew within that part of the organization that's something I'm very proud of but a lot of
42:45
us spokespeople are white so you know the people who talk about reward or even
42:51
diversity think so that they are white and that is what's allowed I think many many people to comment that the CIPD
42:57
looks white because our representation externally is not sufficiently diverse so those are other actions that we will
43:04
be taking to recognize it's not just you're looking at the pyramid it's looking at it across the organization
43:09
say do we have fair balance and we are and we will continue to report on an
43:14
ethnic pay gap which today stands at 20% which is not good enough and it is reflective in some of those stats and we
43:21
are committing to get it to zero and those are very challenging targets but we've said to assess why would it be
43:26
anything different and the same thing with gender pay gap so those are the kind of commitments that we're making we're putting them out publicly and I've
43:32
acknowledged publicly that we have to do better and we should have seen some of these things before and that's I think
43:37
part of the honest conversation we all need to have within the profession thank you I see some people asking about where
43:43
can we find those stats and maybe one of my colleagues is in the background could just post a link to Peter's blog today and you'll be able to fill my blog and
43:51
it's also we've been reporting it in our annual reports over the last several years as well thank you um Frank there's
43:57
quite a lot of questions I'm just going to try and wrap into one question is there basically about processes and
44:03
procedures so whether that's performance management or dealing with PR and
44:09
grievances any advice on how to deal with with those to make them more
44:15
effectively anti-racist um not
44:20
specifically because I don't know what the policies every company has different policy so I can't make a policy
44:27
statement I can give you the framework from how you should be looking at your policies and so the the and one of the
44:34
reasons dial hasn't moved is we have confused we have confused or well may be
44:39
that we've mislabeled inclusion was actually what most companies are doing is assimilation and so
44:47
assimilation is we have this diverse pool of talent that we're recruiting that's in our organization and we're
44:54
putting in programs to help them fit and accelerate their there's their assimilation into our corporate culture
45:00
and so the policies are really not changing HR is checking his home homework and it's not really adapting
45:07
because the policies is putting in yet mentoring the sponsorship is actually to help those people adapt to us assimilate
45:15
an inclusion is actually quite the opposite inclusion says we have this diverse our
45:21
talent pool with a different perspective a different outlook on the world what do we have to do as an organization
45:27
to change our leadership behaviors to change our HR policies and practices our
45:33
engagement communications approach to adapt to that world so what's happening
45:38
right now is and against why many denies initiatives will fail because they focus
45:43
on assimilation the policies aren't changing their fixed and we're putting in a lot of initiatives to help people
45:49
accelerate the assimilation and they're not actually challenging the underlying
45:55
systems that they have so you know for example the the nine box grid the nine
46:02
box grid you know you can get an HR conversation for an hour over six boxes
46:07
or nine boxes the ninth box grid in every succession planning process I've
46:13
been in is ages no one over 45 is ever dawn of high potential and H I was in
46:21
the room that's a draws process and I won't say none because someone's gonna raise their hand say we don't but in
46:27
general over 45 and clearly over 50 and you know as Linda Gratton and others in
46:33
100 year life no one is high potential which means they're no more getting
46:38
training the Lord knowing of the opportunities that no long did the rotational development so HR needs just
46:45
step back and challenge the the the industrial strength policies has had in
46:50
place based on assumption seventy years ago and so it's not just about race is
46:55
about all the characteristics and since they like tactics I would say you know when you're sitting your next accession
47:01
planning meeting and there's a 55 year old person coming up and you know in terms of whether they sit I will
47:07
guarantee you no matter how performing and how capable and how healthy they are they will not be in that upper right
47:14
hand column so we just got a deconstruct many more policies and question do they fit this world and the future work maybe
47:25
a couple of reflections on that from me to you Casey I agree Frank I'm indeed this is the very essence of corporate
47:31
car from what we understand of it I've been in business long time as it consumed for many many years where with many many organizations during the 80s
47:37
90s naughties and and the fact was is that the thing that drove us most was efficiency yeah let's make this your
47:43
point about time to recruit an efficiency metric these monolithic cultures we've created recruiting in our
47:49
own image using language like cultural fit saying is that person culturally fitting has a thin barrier for saying
47:56
they don't look like me then it's not good yeah I'm not going to happen I remember early on in my career being
48:02
challenged by Rainier Kerry although I'm sure you know who said to me when was the last time you recruit assembly truly
48:07
scary what he meant by that was something different and that is that is a societal thing it's always wide in our
48:14
brains that we we have this affinity towards people that look the same and the real cultural challenge for us on
48:20
diversity is to not only accept difference but to stop this assimilation as you said but to adapt to difference
48:28
and to treat people and every individual as individuals and then and then you
48:33
write about parties because actually when we've created a lot of poses in the past and practice and processes in the
48:38
interests of efficiency yes Stan depressant standard ways of recruiting standard ways of promoting and those
48:44
have not acknowledged and accepted difference I think we are making progress on some of these things I mean
48:50
we still have a long way to go and that's a big acknowledgement we're all making but I think we have been making progress and I do see much more
48:56
adaptation of organizations to recognize difference but we still got more to do and not only in forces of pranksters
49:03
Frank but I would particularly this has always been one of my soap boxes I would particularly talk about training manager
49:10
there's so many of the things we've failed in organizations to do is to not train managers about how to manage
49:17
people effectively and to hold them to account for that in this context of diversity this is challenging if we
49:23
acknowledge that most people in their social communities and networks as Frank and I beds already set to not experience
49:30
diversity and they're thrown into work and you've got to deal with age diversity ability diversity background
49:36
diversity ethnic diversity yeah ways of working diversity which we're having to do with that and you haven't changed the
49:42
managers then we shouldn't be surprised at some of the outcomes and hence you don't get the retention and hence you do
49:47
get as the questions already pointed out these tensions that exist that can result in things like grievances an
49:54
employment tribunal so that's the other thing I would say is we must think harder about how do we teach and support
50:00
and train and develop and how to account our managers in managing much more diverse teams respecting individuality
50:07
as well as the adaptation of all our policies and practices as we've touched on no that's great Peter and Katie if I
50:14
could give you one policy so so it's not the answer but we have to be aware HR
50:21
when we take these flavors of the day and put them into practice so one of the
50:27
flavors of the day is blind CVS assume
50:33
that so in the work I've done it may not be you know clickable to everyone when
50:39
the work I've done blind CDs have an unintended consequence and that's the problem of audience what they have
50:44
unintended consequence so let's start from the point for the last four years most companies have had a big focus on
50:52
gender diversity they've made public commitments 30 percent Club you name it
50:57
on Hamilton Alexander they have a public commitment to increasing women into the
51:04
workplace and into the senior levels so what's the message that we cruda has the
51:10
recruiter was looking at five or six CDs of john david harry and Sally and the
51:18
recruiter was saying okay I've got a qualified woman here I need to put that CB into the system
51:24
because we're really pushing gender improvement in our workforce what's
51:31
happened with the blind Seabees is that we haven't not we haven't acknowledged that there's actually been positive
51:37
discrimination in the favour of females in the recruitment process because that's the message that's been going out
51:43
to the recruitment and the HR firms blind CV is not a bad thing but it's leveled the playing field and what I
51:51
have found in some of my clients is that they now have less females going through
51:56
the pipeline and some of some of the consequences and ethnic minorities that
52:02
you know time doesn't allow but taking in the female side is reduced the female pool so again in all these things we
52:08
gotta be very careful that we just don't cut and paste and understand and and
52:15
order it and really look at the impact that they have because the ycb issue may
52:20
be reducing your female intake can I
52:26
just add to that Kate because I know one of the other questions that's coming up and I could see it on some of the pieces is this sort of idea positive
52:34
discrimination whatever words you want to use and we have to be careful the worst because some have particular legal meanings but I've never been a fan of
52:40
like cities to me it always felt like it was a sticking-plaster and what you're addressing a symptom not cause if you do
52:46
not confront the fact that actually I've got to be open to recruiting people from all backgrounds yeah pretending their
52:52
names don't exist which is part of who they are and part of their identity and at what point does that become clear in
52:58
the process it just seems a very odd thing to do I know there are fans of it that I've always found it a very real
53:03
thing I think is you're saying Frank and therefore to address a second question which is so how do we really shift the
53:10
dial we have to proactively go out and encourage more a long list of people
53:16
from ethnic backgrounds much as we've done with women we have to do that but then as we go through the approval
53:22
process then when course we've got um actual things are balanced and we're not discriminating one where they were but you can absolutely front-end load some
53:30
of these things and there was a very interesting HBR article that was turn the rounds inside the CIPD where
53:35
they showed that if you have four candidates in a final list and I knew one of them was black the chance of that
53:41
person getting hard was with four it's really very slim versus if you had two so there are some very profound things
53:48
that we need to understand and I don't think that and to me blank CD's is being part of what I described as
53:54
sticking-plaster many of the very fundamental issues to which we must know address I think that's something we must
53:59
also challenge so if I finish that off I know we're prolonging this contain ease it doesn't address the fundamental issue
54:05
of why do we need my CDs what's wrong with our managers and our processes that
54:11
we have to you know cover up the same ectly so if I don't like you
54:17
you know I don't like you and you put a blindfold over my eyes and my wife
54:22
invites you over to dinner um I take off that blindfold are you gonna feel
54:27
welcomed no um you still have to address the fundamental culture issues we I say
54:33
we put we overweight the the intake part of this and we underweight the the
54:40
culture and and retention and ultimately progressions issue around here so I
54:45
agree with Peter and again I I look at it as an organizational blind spot if
54:50
you're lacking M&A capability and your team is that positive discrimination that you're going to choose the
54:56
candidate that has M&A experience over someone who's heavy in taxes I just
55:01
think it's part of building an organization of strength and capability and if that's positive that's positive
55:07
but that's the organizational capability strategy so to return to your point about culture change and the point Peter
55:13
was making earlier about line management capability um we've got a few questions
55:18
about addressing defensiveness weakness of many white people when you start
55:25
talking about race and specifically racism how do we address that yeah cuz i
55:35
was i was born black in a very early age
55:45
I mean it is this sort of white privilege and this lived experience and I just give me a little anecdote I
55:50
remember talking I was actually a session with MacGregor Smith we're talking to a whole athletic group of
55:57
people largely T&I people interestingly but it was a very very ethnically mixed crew and I said to them I said you know
56:04
the trouble is we found it typical talking about race and this black guy immediately stuck his hand up and said
56:10
no you do because you're white I have to think about and talk about almost every day now that does not mean and I've seen
56:16
a lot of frustration from the black and the ethnic minority communities are saying well that doesn't make a sex pencil on all this stuff don't just use
56:23
us as the librarians on these things but the fact is we do need to open up the conversation and I think that's where we
56:29
have to start I've had many many white people say over the years since certainly saying in this context now oh
56:35
gosh I don't know where to start I'm going to say the wrong thing I'm kind of opening up the debate we've all got to
56:41
open up the debate and on all sides we've got to acknowledge that if we as white people can't talk about it then
56:47
we're not going to make progress either and equally I would say to the black and ethnic minority community yeah we might
56:54
have to wear a fence lightly and what I mean by that is is that if we jump down
56:59
people's throats very quickly when they start to open up the conversation maybe say this say the wrong thing or maybe
57:04
cause some level of you know hopefully mild offense of course which jump down the throats of is much deeper let's seek
57:11
to understand let's that's not trying to come from a place of understanding because if we do that we will shut down
57:17
the conversation and that instantly this conversation does not just go for people in within the organization it's about
57:23
leaders it's about people like me talking openly about it and we've all got to be I should be I mean I'm a
57:30
leader you have to take the slings and arrows and all of those sorts of things but but it doesn't remove that fact that
57:36
we've got to have the open conversation and we've all got to be open to it and we were going to be prepared to show our vulnerabilities and what we do and don't
57:42
understand and and if we have if we if there is a fence then black people and then ethnic minority able to gotta tell
57:49
us where we've got to go right on this stuff and so so I think it's it is as you said caging the question one of the
57:56
things that worries me is that we don't talk about because we felt fried to talking about it and now we absolutely must I mean
58:04
let's open up those conversation thank you there's a question I've lost it I think
58:09
I can remember it um about employee groups and I know that a lot of employee
58:15
networks and groups might be feeling overwhelmed right now with the amount of
58:20
information and input they're expected to give and think this specific question
58:25
which I now can't find but I think I remember was about whether we should be resourcing them more effectively because
58:30
at the moment they tend to be run just by very very passionate volunteers so Frank have you got any thoughts on
58:35
whether organizations should be resourcing them or whether it's as you said earlier there is a special ISM well
58:42
employee resource groups are very vital they're not the answer but they're a
58:47
very vital channel and and voice for the organization but there's a spectrum not
58:54
every resource group is the same so the early steps the most ERG is around
59:01
social events and external speakers the highest pyramid for a orgies is being a
59:08
strategic voice and and lever for the business so in and and one client major
59:17
consumer group if they're going into Latin America and they don't have any
59:24
leaders from Latin America they use their employee resource group as another
59:29
way of looking at their product their marketing there they go to market
59:34
strategy and so that employee resource group has has positioned itself in a highly strategic way and I would say
59:41
those those resource groups that have already reached that high level which very very few have they are probably not
59:48
struggling because this is just another strategic challenge and voice that the organization's looking to the more those
59:54
who are still in that level of social events and speakers and him it's the
1:00:00
first step but if they're still in that level of socially get to be massive speakers and I'm not plugged their
1:00:05
agenda into the business agenda they are being overwhelmed so I don't have a silver bullet for any of that because
1:00:12
those are not overnight issues but if they positioned strategically they're probably okay because the company is
1:00:19
resourcing them to help the company if they're detached and focused on social
1:00:24
events and speakers the company's not resourcing them because they're not seeing how this connects to my business
1:00:31
it's just a social group so the the the near-term opportunity is to reflect and
1:00:38
say how to remove ourselves in this new world to a more strategic resource for the organization and not separate and
1:00:45
more of a socializing that was their
1:00:51
question so I did remember it very well and I'd also like to acknowledge that we are slightly over running so I promise
1:00:56
I'll bring it to a close soon but this is a really fascinating conversation so I'll keep going a little bit longer sorry thanks Casey you know just a
1:01:04
couple of reflections I mean within the CIPD I'm very proud of the these
1:01:09
resource groups that we have and particularly what we call embrace which is the the black and ethnic minority
1:01:16
group which I'm the executive sponsor for and I agree with your point Frank it's just a sort of forum to bring in
1:01:22
other people to talk actually we use our forum very much to raise awareness within our whole organization and that
1:01:29
group is not just made up interesting new black and ethnic minority individuals it's very much a collective
1:01:35
but we are using that forum and those people to help us all understand issues to have the honest conversations and to
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hear from people what is it what is it the experience that lifts experience of somebody inside our organization as a
1:01:49
minority as a black person what does it mean and how do they see and feel and perceive the cartridge do they feel that
1:01:56
they can be themselves that they could be an open they can challenge their colleagues when they are offended by you
1:02:01
know what might be unintentional but nonetheless hurtful comments and it's
1:02:06
it's all of that to make that I think we've really tried to energize within the organization and I would I would
1:02:12
commend and I think they're really important than it is Frank said if they know only just social groupings or
1:02:17
opportunities to bring an external speakers I think we're missing a real opportunity to use through those sorts
1:02:23
of channels in their works I open up the wider conversation share it with all the colleagues from all ethnic backgrounds and ask those
1:02:30
questions of people what is the lived experience of being in my organization as a minority how am i treated and how
1:02:38
much do I have psychological safety talk openly about the things that concern me
1:02:43
and that I use that voice to challenge the leadership of the organization which is indeed what our increased team have
1:02:48
been doing challenging the leadership other things we need to be doing better no I agree Peter and the one morning
1:02:55
label Kenny and so you say the ER Gees are struggling that's one sigh the other part that is very real not that that's
1:03:01
not real is cuz I always say every organization has only one there's only
1:03:07
one black person in the senior level and everyone knows who they are I always think I should start a club or the only
1:03:13
one club because we tend to know who they are they are feeling drained right now if you're the only black HR person
1:03:21
on the HR team people are coming to you because you've now the black expert on everything urban and black and George
1:03:28
Floyd and last 400 years that's probably the bigger issue it's not the employee
1:03:33
resource groups it's where you have the only one and the team and they're being drained by having to answer the
1:03:40
questions and being come to on this very narrow topic and they've never been
1:03:45
really utilized with a bigger insight in the organization they are the one suffering probably more so than any any
1:03:52
port evening employee resource group and so I would I would just put that warning out where you have that only one kind of
1:03:59
backup for them because they really struggle in this environment right now in the chat some people feel like that's
1:04:06
you've despised I'm gonna have to bring this to a close because we are already
1:04:11
running over but I just like to ask both of you see the we had a very wide title
1:04:16
for this which was where next so Peter in a minute or less when it
1:04:22
yeah I think is a commitment to action and we never got a change but we're also
1:04:28
going to be clear on what those actions are I think what we have to be careful oh there's not just platitudes and as I
1:04:34
said I've laid out a number of things that we're trying to do is this became what we want to encourage the
1:04:40
profession to do so I would say that this is definitely call to action it's definitely called the greater
1:04:46
connection sharing and learning between us all and it's a great it's a time of being honest and open about the things
1:04:53
that have worked and the things that have not worked and what have got to change and therefore from that what
1:04:58
leads to action thank you entering yeah I would say you know get the Mackenzies
1:05:04
the Boston Consulting Group's get all on get those ten reports next time you have a senior leadership team meeting put
1:05:10
them on the table and ask the question why are we ignoring the stator why would
1:05:15
knowing this leader and then the last point I would make is just part of the professional map of courage I you know I
1:05:22
think I've said this earlier to me I define that in HR as championing the unpopular cause that is courage to meet
1:05:29
an HR professional it's not going about a fire it's champing the unpark of the cause and I think the last six weeks has
1:05:37
brought to the light that we have to be the ones leading that conversation and
1:05:42
that change agenda and not sitting in the background thank you
1:05:48
so I'm really sorry I have to close it there I really think we could go on for a really long time and I've barely
1:05:53
scratched the surface of the questions I can see a lot of people saying how brilliant they found that how great they
1:05:59
found it serious will we be doing more please can we do more I think it's fair to say yes yes we can do more leave back
1:06:05
with us and I'm sure we'll be able to come back with another great series I just like to thank Frank Frank we gave
1:06:13
you editorial control as you said and you really really delivered and we really appreciate you giving up your
1:06:18
time and your energy and your wisdom and sharing it with we've had thousands of
1:06:23
people coming back for season two that's
1:06:30
it from us for now I'd like to thank you all so much for watching and engaging please do share these recordings as the
1:06:36
CIPD as Peter said we are committing to listening but also really vitally to acting and doing more so please watch
1:06:43
this space and do get in touch with us if there's anything more that you'd like to share so that's it canal and I hope
1:06:50
you all have a good evening so thank you thanks Fang
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