Meg Dunphy:
Hello everyone and welcome to the latest edition of the CIPD in Ireland podcast. Today we're taking a look back at our Employment Law Conference 2026. Staying up to date with employment law can be challenging in a rapidly evolving EU and Irish legislative landscape. The event at the Aviva, supported by Adare Trusted People Partners, brought together leading experts, employee relations practitioners and forward-thinking employers to share insights on key developments and how organisations are responding in practice. We start with the opening address by our Director of the CIPD in Ireland, Alison Hodgson.
Alison Hodgson:
When we pulled together our employment law conference, we have one guiding principle and that is around humanising employment law and demystifying it. It can be big and it can be scary and that is why we have worked very hard at putting together a roster of expert speakers who are the experts in their field and they come with informed, balanced and comprehensive perspectives. The conversations today, they will be about the tough stuff, the tricky stuff, the big stuff, the small stuff and it's really about providing the compact learning opportunity for everybody. We're also very excited to be launching the CIPD in Ireland Trust later on today. You'll be hearing more about that. But that's our social impact arm who works with the marginalised demographics to integrate them into the workforce. So you'll be hearing more about that this afternoon. And then to close out the day this evening, we've got an expose behind the scenes what really happens in the courts whenever we're not there. So we've got Peter Ward, who is engaging, funny, amusing and enlightening, all in equal measure.
Meg Dunphy:
As Alison mentioned, we launched a new pilot initiative to support people with minor convictions to succeed in the workplace. It's A partnership with Tosú and we'll see HR professionals volunteering to mentor a person who has a minor conviction into employment. and it's the first step in expanding the CIPD Trust to Ireland. Head of the Trust, Sally Eley, chaired a fascinating discussion with Jacob Harmon from Tosú, Ray Power, Prison Reform and Mental Health Advocate, and Fiona Sharkey, Partner at Makins Don Murphy. First, we'll hear from Jacob and Ray.
Sally Eley:
What we concentrate on doing is support people who find it particularly difficult to get into work by marrying them up with the people profession. And we do that through a number of ways. It could be tactical by mentoring programmes, coaching, that kind of thing, employability sessions, or it could also be through advocacy. And we do lots of panel discussions and showcasing of employer great practice. So One of our main areas of focus is supporting people with convictions. In the UK, one in four people have a criminal conviction and that can really get in the way of getting a job. And yet we know that having a job is one of the things that's likely to keep somebody fit and well, out of trouble, and that has far-reaching benefits to wider society as well. Also, it helps employers feel vital skills gaps, so it's a win-win. But often there can be some issues around confidence and how people get started. So we know that there's quite a lot of caution and wariness around this subject. So the idea of the panel is that we go a bit deeper into some of those areas and understand what other things that get in the way of employers doing this well. Let's start with you, Jacob. If you could tell us a little bit more about what Tosú do and what do you feel that the barriers are for employers doing more in this space?
Jacob Harmon:
Sort of fresh start, right? And that reflects our commitment to helping everyone across Ireland get a fresh start after they have done their service and their sentence to their communities. And the way that we do that is It's a diverse range of services and supports that we provide people from basic resettlement, housing, and access to health care, which are the foundations on which any good life is built, to more advanced job search and job readiness training and skills building. So in our 26 years, we've helped 65,000 people, but we serve about 5,000 people a year. And a big part of what we do is employment readiness. And there's a lot of interest as we work in nearly every community in Ireland. There's a lot of interest from employers in accessing the talent that exists among people with criminal convictions. But there is hesitation. There are concerns about how to do it and how to do it well, right? And that leads to that lack of confidence that you were talking about, Sally. And so really, I'm not here to tell you to ignore any of those concerns. I'm actually here to tell you that there's a lot of help and support available and that the question that we should be asking is are our processes, are our systems for recruitment and assessment, are they fair and are they open, right? One of the things that we do with almost all of our clients is help them think about how they might disclose that they have a criminal conviction. And for nearly everyone we work with, this is a terrifying prospect, right? But it is also an opportunity to see the kind of future orientation that people have, what they want to build with your help, right? And it's a really great opportunity to see the growth and development that people have undertaken already. And so if in your processes you ask about criminal convictions during interview or application, and that's a disqualifying fact that someone has, that we would see as bad to process. And instead, we would ask you to see it as an opportunity to discover something important and meaningful about the candidate who's sitting in front of you. And I would suggest that more often than not, you will find that it is really illuminating and it does create opportunities for both you as an organisation and the person you're sitting across from. So we understand the hesitancy that you all might have, but there is a network that exists already. I have 30 people who work with me on engaging with employers around how they can update, do very simple, practical things to widen their candidate pool and access a tremendous amount of talent, a tremendous amount of enthusiasm, and also participate in making their communities safer, right?
Sally Eley:
Ray, can I come to you? Obviously you do a lot of advocacy in this space now, and I know that you've got a lived experience, haven't you as well? So would you be able to share with us a bit about what your experience has taught you and how you then help others move on with their journeys?
Ray Power:
So I'm from Waterford City, and for the last seven years after I left prison, I've dedicated my time as a volunteer supporting people with mental health addiction and returning to society after prison. All of these things I have a lived experience in. If I could just share a little bit of my story. My story started way, way back when I was a child. I grew up in a housing estate in Waterford City, an underprivileged area in Waterford. So that was my first barrier, looking for employment. It's where I lived was the problem. At a young age I was hit by a car just right outside the housing estate where I lived at six years of age. The car that hit me drove off, never stopped and I ended up having horrific injuries with that. While other kids were out learning how to play, I was actually learning how to walk again. Going back into school then I struggled very, very bad with my education because I lost an awful lot of time. It was nearly 18 months in hospital and then other operations trying to rebuild my life. So I lost an awful lot of my education, which affected me throughout most of my adult life. I left school very early and went into the building trade. I stayed in that for 12 years. It was a downturn in the economy then. I had no work and I ended up going into the security door world. This had a huge impact on my mental health, especially then with all the childhood trauma that I would have grown up with. My mum and dad would have suffered their own addictions as well. I'm at the age of 33, while everything was going well, I had a great job, everything was perfect. I struggled with a mental health crisis. I started off with a panic attack and it was like someone came on in my life and hit a switch. It just turned my world upside down. It was very hard for me to talk, especially being in the door world. I used to be shown this image, you know. I could go out and work on the door, I was the most confident man that you'd ever see, you know, meeting and greeting people. And then on my way home in the car I'd be crying. I developed an addiction, got addicted to my own antidepressants. I was struggling to get my life back. So I had this thing in my mind that if I take, surely if I take more antidepressants, I would feel a lot better. And I formed a huge addiction. When I couldn't get those, then I was buying them on the street. I was losing work. I was starting to meet HR and being managed out of companies because I was falling asunder. And everything I had in my life just disappeared. and through, I suppose, confusion and bad choices, I found myself in prison. I served an 18-month sentence. Prison for me was actually the turning point of my life because it was in the prison that I beat my addiction and I combated my mental health. I used prison as, I suppose, trying to repair myself. I said, okay, I never spoke about my mental health and traumas that I would have had in my life, so I'm going to use this as a platform to get that help and support and I did. And so I went through a detox that lasted nearly three months. It was horrific. I will never forget it. I went into prison 19 stone and wait and left 18 months later 13 stone. But while I was in prison I started doing a lot of work. I was very, very hopeful for the future when I get out. My mental health was gone, my addiction was gone. I was looking at things through a different set of eyes. I couldn't wait to get out. So when I came out of prison, the first thing I did is I'm going to have to change the way I was behaving and took an honest look at the role I was playing, I suppose, with my own suffering. I saw the lack of services in Waterford City, so I set up a suicide intervention team in Waterford City called Reassure. We got charitable status just early last year. We've 30 volunteers. To date, we have 170 interventions people brought to safety because of the organisation. Through all the last seven years, I would have went on and educated myself, went into prisons, shared my story, went into schools, colleges. Recently, I completed an eight-week course in the Dóchas prison, delivering a mental health and recovery workshop. It was a huge success. I'm very passionate about this work. But then it comes a time in my life where volunteering is beautiful and I'm passionate about what I want to do, but volunteering won't pay the bills and I have a family to support and I want to move on. So I started reaching out and applying for jobs and I realised that the easy part for me sometimes, and this is probably hard for the years, the easy part was the prison sentence, was coming home and trying to rebuild my life. is the most difficult part. I look at my CV today, I'm very, very proud of my CV and all the stuff that I've accomplished. Even in my CV, neatly folded is hope. You know, hope that someone will see beyond my criminal conviction and just give me a chance. You know, I just want to touch briefly on the reality of what I face when I apply for jobs. Just recently I was sent a few links through organisations that I do support with. There was a job vacancy coming up in Waterford City in a hostel. Men orientated. A lot of them would have had addiction issues and different things. I was perfect for the job. I applied for the job. Within 20 minutes of sending my CV, I got a phone call. Within an hour I was sitting for an interview. The guy I was speaking to was saying, your CV is absolutely incredible. You'd be a perfect candidate for the job. When could you start? I said a week. A week's notice I could start the job. Got a second interview. The second interview there was a lady in there, she didn't do much talking. The first guy that interviewed me was doing all the talking. So they kind of hummed in on my criminal conviction and why I was in prison. And I'm very open and honest about my conviction. I was in a prison for assault. I hit someone and thankfully no life-changing injuries or anything like that, and something I'm very, very sorry about. And today we're friends, I'm friends with that guy. and I could feel the energy in the room dropping straight away once I disclosed that. They said they'll ring me. I said, great. I was really, really hopeful telling my family, I said, this is looking good. They love the CV, they love what I do, I'd be great doing this. The Saturday morning I was sitting down at the table with my family and the phone rang and it was the guy that I was having the interview. So I left the room and he said, Ray, you were perfect for the job. The CV is absolutely brilliant. I brought this to management and management are all about safeguarding the people that we have in the hostel and it would go through the roof if I hire you. And I have to sit with that. So I said, thank you for the opportunity. I knew this guy probably would have hired me, but I knew the management, so I hung up, got a bit upset, went down to my family and said, no, I didn't get it. And then I have to tell them the reason why I didn't get that job. And in that moment, I worked seven years doing amazing stuff and I'm remembered for that moment that I went into prison. And that's why I'm passionate about what I do, creating opportunities for people.
Sally Eley:
Thank you. I literally, I work in this area all the time and it chokes me up every single time. This is why people like you who can change policies and practices and influence in your organisations need to do more.
Meg Dunphy:
After the break, we'll hear more about supporting people with minor convictions to succeed in the workplace.
Are you looking to unlock better performance through people? Join the CIPD Thrive Conference this October. Discover the latest research, practical tools and real-world insights on productivity and people, trust, leadership and wellbeing. Book now by searching for CIPD Ireland on Eventbrite.
Meg Dunphy:
Welcome back. Now we'll hear advice from Fiona Sharkey about what employers should consider when employing a person with a conviction.
Fiona Sharkey:
Ray for that very powerful account. You mentioned the word chance. Well, I certainly agree with the sentiment. Everyone deserves a second chance. I won't and can't sugarcoat that it is difficult for those individuals with live convictions to regain employment. The reasons being like the market is tight, competitive and it is all too easy for an employer to identify what they deem a red flag and do away with that person. But I would hope that looking into the future this could change for the better with the right supports in place, CIPD Trust, Tosú and I know IHREC have done a lot of work in advocacy for an additional protected ground under the employment equality legislation of criminal record. I don't want to talk too much about barriers here. I want to talk about some relevant legal frameworks you should be aware of and get you thinking about how this can present for HR and business owners in real life. But in essence it's about the following principles as I see it. So reasonableness, proportionality, relevance. So for example, if you're in the business of transporting goods and you're aware if a candidate has an offence, let's say it's a minor offence, nothing to do with driving, query, is it proportionate to not hire on that basis? And also query, more importantly, are you losing talent as a result? Just briefly on the legislative underpinnings here, the Criminal Justice Spent Convictions in Certain Disclosures Act 2016. For certain offences, once those offences are spent, an applicant is legally entitled not to disclose that conviction. So the act sets out that where a person aged 18 or older was convicted of an offence and at least seven years has elapsed since the conviction, then the conviction can be regarded as spent. And the offences involved are relatively minor. There are certain offences which can never be spent, such as sexual offences. What does that mean in the employment context? So it means that the individual is not obliged to disclose a spent conviction and cannot be penalised for not disclosing said conviction. I'm talking in the general sense here because there are certain jobs that are excluded from that, the state jobs, jobs that require guard the vetting. What does it mean for the employer then? So as part of recruitment processes, many employers are asking for prospective employees to self-certify if they have a conviction. So this act restricts the scope of that by requiring you to not ask them and requiring employees to not disclose them. There are GDPR implications as well. I'm aware that a lot of employers ask about criminal convictions. Should they do that? Are they legally permitted to do that? If you're not operating in a regulated capacity, actually the means by which you can ask for that data are extremely restricted. There's a much higher threshold that applies to asking for that data. Unlike the UK, there's no central conviction register here. So the means by which you can go about getting it is very, very difficult. Absent, you know, explicitly saying on a disclosure form, this is entirely voluntary. So that's just something to be aware of. If you are asking for that data, you need to be very careful and you need to have a decent data protection policy, data protection impact assessment and all the kind of documentation that goes with that. What I have seen in the past advising HR practitioners is when you're not aware that there was something in the past and then it presents itself to you in work as a HR practitioner and what do you do? Just to be very practical here for a minute, so say you have an employee, they had a drug-related offence, let's say. Maybe it wasn't a conviction, maybe they were before a court. That information wasn't disclosed to you. That information, a few years into the job, you become aware of that information. Somebody Googles something and you're made aware of it. What do you do in that situation? So it's about back to proportionality, relevance, proximity. So obviously if you're working in the business of drug manufacturing, that can become a serious issue for you. For all sorts of reasons, the individual is proximate to drugs, there's a possibility of re-offending, and then you have health and safety obligations towards your workforce as well. So that is something I would have to say, if you find yourself in that situation, you should be seeking guidance, because it's very tricky for HR practitioners to navigate that. Obviously they want to do right by this person. person could be an exceptional worker, but they have to view things in the round. And just to finish off on that, if it's not a drug manufacturing business, then does it have any relevance whatsoever to the workplace? So just quickly, I want to finish on a positive note to say that there are myriad benefits and there is a business case, generally speaking, for inclusive hiring. You've got a wider talent pool. We're aware that there are some financial incentives as well. But also, moreover, the social responsibility side It reflects well on your organisation's values.
Meg Dunphy:
I also spoke to Sally Eley about how you can get involved.
Sally Eley:
So first of all, the easiest thing you can do is just follow the CIPD Trust on LinkedIn and like our social media, engage with our content. Just the very fact that your jobs and your roles and your advocacy for it, that makes a huge difference to us. So that's a really simple thing and easy thing that anyone could do. Something else you could do is if you're interested in the work we've been talking about in terms of with, I cannot say the word, Tosú, Jacobs organisation, we are looking to pilot a mentoring programme where we mentor people who perhaps have been in Ray situation. And so if you're interested in that, get in touch with you, Meg. Yeah, or any of the CIPD team. Exactly. We've also got guidance. We produced it. It's UK guidance, but it is pretty much 90% if it's absolutely relevant to you on if you are interested in looking at how your hiring policies affect people with convictions, this is free. You can get this from us. So, you know, please get in touch and we'll happily share it and put you in touch with other organisations as well who might be able to give you a bit more bespoke information. Because we completely recognise that everyone's in their own context and will have their own specific questions and, you know, concerns.
Meg Dunphy:
Maria McAnearney, from KPMG walked us through what the EU AI Act means for employers and people professionals. If you use or sell AI in the EU, you need to ensure you're adhering to the Act.
Maria McAnearney:
First and foremost, who is actually in scope for the EU AI Act? And just to clear this up, in short, it's essentially everyone. I would be shocked if anyone sitting in this room today is not using AI in some way, shape or form. And it could be as little as just using Copilot or the likes of ChatGPT or Claude as a glorified search engine. That will still put you in scope for artificial intelligence and compliance with the EU AI Act on some level. So then, first of all, I'm hoping that everybody in the room is aware of Article 4 and AI literacy requirements. So this part of the legislation actually became legally enforceable in February 2025. And it essentially says that both providers and deployers of AI systems shall take measures to ensure to their best extent that everyone in the organisation has a sufficient level of AI literacy. And this is particularly for any staff that are dealing with the operation of AI systems on their behalf. This level of AI literacy has to take into account the technical knowledge, experience, education and training and the context in which the AI system is being used and the context in which the individuals who are going to be affected by the outputs of those AI solutions So essentially, what does this mean for HR functions? And some of you, I'm sure, have already developed training plans in relation to AI. But for those of you who haven't yet started, the first thing is to really understand where artificial intelligence is being used in your organisation. And I don't mean to underestimate that is a large piece of work, given that there are challenges with shadow AI being used across the organisation. This isn't necessarily a task we would see sitting within HR, but it would certainly be your responsibility to ensure that your teams under your remit of responsibility, that you have an understanding and a visibility of where artificial intelligence is being used just within your teams. And then to take it back to your ELT members to see if there is a need for an organisational-wide discovery project to really start to understand where AI is being used. Because essentially for you guys, you can't put in place training programmes if you don't even know what you're supposed to be training your staff on. And that goes with everything as well. So once you understand where AI is being used, it's about identifying those gaps ongoing training programmes. It's not just a one and done on the EU Act. It's also to ensure that any deployment of AI continually throughout the life cycle of your organisation, if you're doing AI rollouts over the next 10, 20 years, you have to train your staff appropriately on each of those tools and how to use them in line with your acceptable use policies and data governance and so on and so forth. And it has to be role specific. So taken into consideration if your organisations have technical AI developers, those guys need the tools. to be able to do that effectively. So moving on then, the actual legislation is built upon a risk framework and it articulates 4 levels of risk, the highest of which being prohibited AI. So the prohibited AI is AI that explicitly contravenes health, safety and fundamental rights of individuals. It's a very limited set of particularly harmful use cases of AI. So it's essentially artificial intelligence that will manipulate human behaviour, such as the use of subliminal techniques or social scoring and biometric categorization. So what that actually looks like in a HR context is if you're using a tool That is scanning your internal work database, looking at emails, if it's also going out into the public domain, looking at social media accounts and looking at essentially socially scoring your staff as things like loyal, trustworthy, based on their information, publicly available and internally available, and then linking that to performance reviews. That would be an example of prohibited AI. You can't use AI because it obviously raises challenges with privacy and discrimination. your organisation. So for those use cases of artificial intelligence, they are banned within the EU. You have to cease to use those examples of use cases and alter them in a way so that they become high risk and then therefore can be managed. So High risk systems are allowed to be used within the EU. You just have to demonstrate a higher level of compliance and put in place certain levels of controls and oversight to make sure that they are safe and being used in an ethical and transparent way. So the definition of high risk is those that have the potential to adversely impact health, safety or fundamental rights of EU citizens. So examples of high risk AI would be CV screenings, automated candidate ranking, video interview analysis, productivity monitoring and performance reviews. And the reason that they're classified as high risk is essentially their ability to introduce a bias of discrimination in relation to whether people can access jobs or be taken for interviews or as well as performance related activities that support those. There's a risk of misinterpretation of outputs from artificial intelligence which could negatively impact EU citizens on fair decision making and then surveillance concerns and privacy risks. So if you are using and so many of these tools already exist, I know even in our HR department the ladies used to book out a basement floor to go through all the grad CVs for applications, there were thousands and I have no doubt they're using AI to make that much quicker because it's a very manual process. So it's just about ensuring that the proper controls are in place to manage that to ensure that it's been overseen appropriately.
Meg Dunphy:
In the closing keynote, Peter Ward, senior counsel, reinforced the critical role HR professionals play at the front line of dispute management. He finished with a recent high profile international case.
Peter Ward:
I heard the session this afternoon about the AI revolution. I don't claim to know anything about AI apart from being afraid of it like everybody else and living in the fear of it. But I did see a very interesting account in the New Yorker magazine where the New Yorker magazine, which does have reputationally the greatest fact checkers in the world, which is why I'm going out on a limb and relying on it, for the account I'm giving of the attempted termination of the employment of Sam Altman as CEO of OpenAI. That was a dismissal that lasted all of five days. He was dismissed as CEO of OpenAI and then he was reinstated after five days. There is an account in the New Yorker which I commend to all of you as HR professionals to read closely because it is a fascinating read as to how a CEO gets dismissed and rehired in those circumstances. But one of the conditions for the rehiring, and it's quite an elaborate story about changes on the board of OpenAI, was that some board members stood aside, but only on the condition that there would be an investigation of allegations against Sam Altman. And ultimately, those investigations resulted in a review which was reported back to the board. But in March 2024, OpenAI announced that it would clear Mr. Altman but released no report. And in the New Yorker article, it's reported how the people involved in the investigation said no report was released because none was written. Instead, the findings were limited to oral briefings shared with a number of the board levels. And I just put that out to you. Can you imagine if you were the HR professional in an organisation where someone at the top of that organisation was the subject of a review but that review was going to be delivered orally to you and how you would try to manage the fallout and the consequences of an oral review of an investigation. But I read that with my jaw on the ground in terms of how that organisation, which is only one of the wealthiest companies of course in the world right now, they tend to set the bar for how investigations will happen. So maybe there are much bigger changes afoot than simply in AI. The sign tells me my time is up. I know it's one of the hottest days of the year. I had merely two other very brief points to say, and one was that by the time it gets to litigation, it's still not too late to try and stop it. Mediation has actually been revolutionary in the courts over the last 10 years or so. It's now actually a no-brainer in almost every High Court case to attempt mediation before you go to litigation, because litigation is, without question, the last resort.
Meg Dunphy:
I hope you've enjoyed the selection of our content from the CIPD in Ireland employment conference. We will be returning in January of 2027, so please look out for that. To our listeners, thank you for tuning in. Remember, you can check out our website and socials to see everything going on across the community. And of course, if you have any feedback on the podcast, please get in touch meg.dunphy@cipd.ie. That's it for today, though. I'll speak to you next month. Take care and bye for now.
Speaker:
For more information on what we do and how you can become a member, visit cipd.org/ie.